60 | Forming Feminist Cities with Gretchen Hunt, from Louisville Metro Office for Women

Step into the vibrant world of feminist city design where strategic sisterhood is reshaping urban spaces to work for everyone. Gretchen Hunt, Director of Louisville's Office for Women, brings her powerful legal background and passionate advocacy to this discussion about how cities can transform when viewed through a gender lens.

What happens when we measure a city's safety and functionality by how comfortable women feel moving through it? Louisville has become only the second U.S. city invited to join the global City Hub and Network for Gender Equity (CHANGE), collaborating with metropolises like London, Paris, and Tokyo to reimagine public spaces. Through innovative approaches like "street tagging" exercises where women identify safe and unsafe areas, and workshops where teen girls design parks they'd actually want to use, we're witnessing the tangible impact of feminist urban planning.

But this isn't just about physical spaces—it's about economic empowerment too. Hunt explains why investing in women through policies like paid leave for domestic violence survivors isn't just compassionate; it's strategically sound for business retention and crime prevention. The conversation weaves between data-driven approaches and vibrant community-building, showing how "calling people in versus calling people out" creates more inclusive movements for change.

From pink-lit storefronts serving as beacons of safety to redesigned parks honoring Black suffragettes, discover how making cities work for women ultimately benefits everyone. As Hunt beautifully puts it, "Stop knocking on closed doors, go into the doors that open... make the party so irresistible that everyone wants to attend."

Follow @OFWLOUMETRO on Instagram to learn about upcoming women's night walks, the Office for Women Ambassador Program, and how you can join the movement to create more joyful, safe, and inclusive urban spaces in your own community.

Chapters

• 0:00 Meet Gretchen Hunt: Powerhouse in Policy
• 7:36 Sisterhood as Strategy for Change
• 14:35 Creating a Feminist City with Publica
• 24:17 Teen Girls Redesigning Public Spaces
• 33:11 Investing in Women's Economic Empowerment
• 42:42 Creating Joy and Building Community
• 56:54 Office for Women Initiatives

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

Hey friends, welcome to Woman-Owned Wallet the podcast. I'm your host, amanda Dare, a serial entrepreneur who has already made all of the money mistakes, so you don't have to Now. I'm working on my money mindset, expanding my companies and having open conversations with women around a subject that shouldn't be so taboo money. My company, woman-owned Wallet, and I are determined to help you foster a more positive relationship with your wallet and help you create a life that makes you say wow, hey moneymakers, welcome back to another episode of Woman Owned Wallet the podcast. Today, I'm with one of the most beautiful people, but I want to give you a little bit of the vibes. So today's guest is a woman who's rewriting the rules on what leadership, advocacy and city building should look like. Gretchen Hunt is here in the house in the wow shop Yay, she is not only a powerhouse in policy and advocacy, she's also my friend, my fellow feminist city dreamer and someone who makes every space that she's in feel more intentional, more inclusive and way more fabulous. So, gretchen, welcome to the podcast. Oh, I'm so excited.

Speaker 2: 1:20

I'm so excited to be here.

Speaker 1: 1:21

Oh, my gosh and y'all. She's wearing the cutest little pink dress. You know what? You have the flower vibes going on here. Oh, my gosh and y'all. She's wearing the cutest little pink dress. You know what? You have the flower vibes going on too. It's spring. It's spring. It's derby season. We got through all that rain, we're over it. It is time for the flowers, isn't it a Dolly Parton quote that, like no rain, no flowers? Yes, is that? Yes, I think so. No, I think it's no rain, no rainbows. Listen, either way, dolly wins Both and Both. And so I first met Gretchen and I don't know if you remember this, but I first met Gretchen at the Galentine's Bash of 2024, which means how have we only known each other like a year, but it feels like forever.

Speaker 2: 2:01

Forever. Yeah, I remember you were a flash of sparkle, oh yeah, and we were like two magnets and we came up to each other and both of us at the same time were saying, like someone told me to link up with you. Yeah, so the universe was pushing us together.

Speaker 1: 2:15

I think I saw maybe you had a name tag on and I was like oh my God, she's amazing. I was like starstruck. But I was wearing a disco ball jumpsuit and had pink hair that day and you know I don't always feel super confident in situations that are like that, are more traditionally professional or whatever. But you were in my space, which was all the wow world, and you were so beautifully excited and welcomed like into that space and I was like, okay, she's my girl, that's cool. So I was very, very appreciative.

Speaker 1: 2:50

But y'all, I have to tell you, recently Gretchen won an award and I was there. I was sitting right next to this cutie and we were at the National Association of Women Business Owners, the EPIC Awards, and Holly and I were nominated for Women Business Owners of the Year and Holly won Amazing. And then we had Gretchen at our table because we're obsessed with her. She won the EPIC Award for Public Policy Catalyst of the Year. In your face, you were like shocked and awe and I was crying. It's fine, like what was that moment for you?

Speaker 2: 3:31

So I love it because I feel like you have been someone who has pulled me into the business and economic side of things.

Speaker 3: 3:38

Oh, really, so you talked about that.

Speaker 2: 3:39

You were a little uncomfortable or maybe didn't feel out of place, and for me I've. You know I've never worked in corporate America other than like jobs, you know, when I was in high school or college. So it feels foreign to me. I don't know the language entirely, I don't feel like that's my space, and so to be embraced by women business owners and to sit at that table of amazing women you included, holly included and to be seen felt very powerful. It also felt very powerful because the award was really about my advocacy a lot on behalf of survivors of gender-based violence, so that felt like this really healing moment to feel like businesses feel comfortable talking about those things and lifting them up.

Speaker 1: 4:22

So it was just really it was very powerful, yeah, and you were, so you're among amazing nominees that you were like they were all coming up to you after and you were. I was just having this moment of like standing back, watching like all powerhouse women just that all do policy change and are all really in depth with the change that we want to see in the world. And I think, of course, we all do that in our own ways, and mine's this way with WOW and y'all's is within the policy and all I want to do is support that because I know how much it not only benefits me but my sisterhood and I just think it was so cool to have all of them coming up and you're going to them and you're like, no, but you're the coolest, no, but you're the coolest, and like that's not what was said, but that's basically what was said.

Speaker 2: 5:10

Yeah Well, we're all shaping culture, right. You're shaping culture no-transcript, and you have really reclaimed that and signified it so in a way that does still connect to issues of policy that impact women, because they're gendered too Right and they're not always seen as serious or central. So I feel like the work actually we are doing is very, very similar in different spheres.

Speaker 1: 5:44

It's very complimentary, for sure, and it's interesting because people talk about pink and it being a gendered color, but it used to be in like the 1950s, I heard it was typically a boy's color and I was just like really Interesting how just culture changes. To me it's like the most human color that exists, you know, like I mean, we're all pink on the inside, I guess, in different ways, and so I just always find it to be so humanizing in that way, so energizing, that we're about that human experience and it's cool to see that. You know what y'all She'd be blushing, I'd be blushing Like we can't help it, because Gretchen really is one of my good friends and I don't know Like I just—my heart feels so full right now and I'm just so happy to be hanging out with you, so I'm just like she's over here, it's fine. Let's just give ourselves a little breather, just for sisterhood, just for friendship. And since you know what since oh yeah, I didn't even warn her about all the fun sounds no, that's good, it's probably loud.

Speaker 1: 6:52

If we need to, we have a or like a. Get on our side, let's do it. And then you just hear.

Speaker 2: 7:01

Oh, I like that. Oh, crickets or the bugs, yeah, crickets. And then, oh, like that, the crickets or the bugs, yeah, the crickets.

Speaker 1: 7:06

And then, oh, fancy I love to show off my sounds because it makes me feel very fancy but you and I definitely we both believe in sisterhood and that's so much more than friendship. Like it is a strategy, and it is both of our strategies, I would say, in so many ways, and I feel like I've seen firsthand how our relationships with other women can really change everything. So, like, how do you think that authentic relationships between women influence the way that we organize and that we advocate and that we reimagine these systems of power? Like what do you think that those relationships really add to that?

Speaker 2: 7:42

Yeah, absolutely so. One of my favorite quotes in the world is EM Forrester, who wrote beautiful novels Howard's End Room with a View and it's just only connect, only connect. And I think we overlook that simplicity of human connection and relationship. Sometimes we overcomplicate things and we have a lot of broken down connections right now. I think that's we have a lot of broken-down connections right now. I think that's responsible for a lot of the suffering in the world and a lot of the vitriol that we experience. So I think connection, human connection, men to women, men to men, boys to boys, boys to girls, girls to non-binary folks, women to women it's all important. I think men, for example, really need some of the bonds that we share as women. So connection is so important. But relationships between women, relationships between women and non-binary folks, who experience a lot of the same challenges, that we face, I think, are very strategic.

Speaker 2: 8:40

Like you said, women have always organized in ways when they lacked resources, when they needed to be creative, when policies and systems don't protect them. So I think specifically about women needing support before having a baby, after having a baby, parenting children, having to work outside the home and making it work. So many women have had to piece that together and they've done that through relationships, and I think that we recognize that we're interdependent and that we are vulnerable, that we depend on each other, and so I think there is a sense that we just really grow up with intuitively and lean into that. I think men are made to feel like they need to be hyper independent. Yeah, I agree. And so why that's so important if you think about policy and economics, is that, like you said, it is a strategy. You and I, I think, are very strategic. I think that's actually what bonds us together. I think there's joy and strategy that we like.

Speaker 1: 9:31

Game. Recognize game girl, but I think that strategy.

Speaker 2: 9:34

you know you have above your register. You know how much money you are putting into women's wallets. You are very strategic with the work you're doing. You're very strategic with the map you've done In New Lou of Women-Owned Businesses. You are very strategic with how you elevate women and how you market, how you have this podcast. But the way that you do that is through relationship and so the way that I've done it in my work always has been through Survivors Council. It was mostly women. There were a few men, but that was about relationships and policy and advocacy. Now sitting and policy and advocacy. Now sitting in the mayor's office for women. I have made sisterhood or those relationships formalized in a way through the Office for Women Ambassador Program, which is for sisters and siblings, because it's women and non-binary folks, and so that's a strategy. Because I am a one-person office, so I have networks, so it's very strategic. It's about relationships, it's about supporting one another, removing barriers, but it's also very much a strategy.

Speaker 1: 10:28

Yeah, and I think sometimes people can think of strategy as somehow, you know, manipulative or something like that, and that's not the way that I believe women are really leaning into it. And, like you're saying, you know the non-binary folks and everyone that's going through the gender diverse individuals. That's what I heard you saying on another interview that I was thinking about you and how you always bring in everyone and you're always mentioning everyone in every sentence that you said you brought it back into that connection that you're saying, that connection, that understanding that, like we said, this pink is this human color. We are all human at the end of the day, and I'm a very humanist person. I want every human to be doing well and I do believe that that's going to be through a lot of the strategy that we should allow, you know, for it to grow and to energize women in that way.

Speaker 1: 11:21

And I think it's beautiful that we can use that in such a bonding way and such a catalyst for change, because it does bond us and, at the end of the day, there's not that much that we really differ on. You know, there's a lot of things that we can get divided on, but there's so much about the human experience that we want for ourselves, we want for our families and we want for our communities. So there's so much strategy in that and I want to think of that as such a good word. So let's redefine it with that?

Speaker 2: 11:49

I would just say, going back to that, I think, most people just want to be able to thrive and to be so. They want to be healthy. They want their family or their loved ones to be healthy. If they have kids, they want their kids to be safe. They want their neighborhoods to be clean and safe and have a place to live, and they also want community. I think people are craving community, and the other thing I just want to say is that strategy and sisterhood are very connected because they can be measured. Ooh, I like that.

Speaker 2: 12:15

So it's not this soft strategy. You know relationships. We've had women ambassadors who have started businesses together after the leadership program. We've had women ambassadors who have started businesses together after the leadership program. We have women who have started to support one another to advance in their careers and to take on new jobs and to elevate. So you see a lot of creative potential that comes out of it that you absolutely can measure. We're measuring that with Office for Women. We're trying to capture that data so we can say this is actually a really good way that all cross-government people can engage women and other folks in the community.

Speaker 1: 12:50

And I think it's interesting because there's a few times that you've told me that I need to be measuring more my impact, and I mean mine, but also obviously, wow and how much that wow really is contributing to positive economic impact.

Speaker 1: 13:07

But sometimes I do feel that it is immeasurable Because even though I have these like when you check out at wow, you hit the ka-ching button and then we just watched it as we had a beautiful sale from another, you know, from another podcast guest that we had, but she got to watch her money go into the wallets of women and now it's such a large number that I walk in and I remember that it's over a million dollars now in the last four years. But that only includes sales from the store. So it doesn't include the events that we've hosted. It doesn't include the money that has been put into their wallets. It doesn't include the money that has been put into the wallets of women because of our woman-owned wallet tour. I don't know how to understand that measurement, but I know it's immense. And trying to know like, okay, we've given out like hundreds of thousands of maps because they have been requested, that's a measurable thing. But how to measure that heart and that soul and kind of like soft.

Speaker 2: 14:11

You almost said I think soft measurement is the way my mind's like vibes yeah that's what I was going to say the vibes or the culture of a back into the work of the Office for Women, which is, raise the economic status of women and gender diverse folks, to encourage people to invest in women, whether that is women owned, minority owned, lgbtq owned, disability owned businesses who become city vendors Right, so that we can invest your tax dollars back into the pockets of those businesses.

Speaker 2: 14:44

But one of the things I was going to say is that you do have measurable results. I mean, you've told me that people come to this city as tourists to do your Women Own Wallet tour. I think that's remarkable and fantastic and it shows that what you're doing is bringing people in. They're spending their money at other places too, so it's not just urbanism, and I love that that the story of the city can be multi-layered and that women have a real role to play in that. So I just think we need to get more comfortable with taking up that space of telling the stories, of what impact we have. I mean impact is taking up space in a way and you have those buttons that I'm going to buy.

Speaker 1: 15:20

I know the take up space.

Speaker 2: 15:22

Take up space, right, because women are taught to shrink. My legs are crossed right now. Right, I'm shrinking even when I'm not trying to. But I think talking about your impact is linked to that. I think it's linked to money, like. I think it's linked to how we value ourselves and if we're comfortable sort of saying this is what value I have. Right, this is what I do for this city. Your store is lit at night. This area is an area that's looking at New Lou's, looking at like how do we make it a great, safe environment, a joyous environment? And your store was noted by the folks who came from London to visit as saying this is a beacon. It's a pink beacon. At night, it emits this light.

Speaker 1: 16:02

I can't wait to get into that because that was such a fun time and I know you've had like really cool trips and stuff too. Well, before we get into that, because y'all, there's so much, so much good things to talk about with Gretchen. Hey, Moneymaker, Our best-selling Dolly for President Tea is winning votes and hearts and exciting news you can now carry it in your store. That's right, the WOW Originals are on fair. We've got bold new designs ready to rock your shelves With new hat drops like Breadwinner and Mansplaining Survivor keychains like In Dolly we Trust and, of course, our cult favorite tees and sweatshirts that say what we're really all thinking and sell really fast. If you're a boutique owner or a buyer and you're looking to stock up on unapologetically woman-owned, feminist-forward goods, then head to faircom and search for woman-owned wallet. Let's fill your store with products that put money in the wallets of women and make your customers say wow.

Speaker 3: 17:13

What does it look like to be able to still be engaged and understand what's happening in our world politically, but not have it destroy your soul? Is it possible? Are we just fighting a downhill battle? Would love to hear your thoughts on this. Oh my God, this is Jocelyn Colley, representing Today's Woman. I just want to say this event is like lit, like the whole place is packed. You can hardly hear. I want to make my rounds, but I'm trying to handle the business first. I think we're looking good over here, so I'm back at Meeble. So great job everybody.

Speaker 1: 17:57

So your recent collaboration with Publica and Change on gender-based violence in the public space is such a powerful example of, like community-rooted design, like I'm obsessed with the fact that we're trying to create this feminist city and every time I talk about that, like you're saying, like you've educated me and now I'm out here spreading the good word about the feminist city and I think it's so cool. So I want to dive in a little bit to Publica and Change and what those two organizations are really quick, and then we'll kind of dive in a little bit further after that.

Speaker 2: 18:32

Yeah, absolutely so. Folks may not know that we A have an office for women and we are really lucky to have an office for women in the city of Louisville since 1991. So props to the leadership at that time, props to the mayor right now, for elevating and spotlighting this office and this issue, because we're really lucky to have that. Also, I'm very proud that we were asked to join the City Hub and Network for Gender Equity or Change, which is a network of 16 cities globally that are working on trying to make sure cities are safe and inclusive and work for women, because when women do well, the whole community does well, economies go up, health goes up, educational attainment goes up. So we are the second US city invited to join, after Los Angeles.

Speaker 2: 19:17

Oh, wow. The other cities include and I may not get them all, no worries, but Mexico City, bogota, colombia, buenos Aires, argentina, renca, chile, london, england, paris, france is just about to join Amsterdam, barcelona, stockholm, sweden, and then, moving further east, nairobi, kenya, sierra Leone, freetown, sierra Leone, quezon City, philippines, tokyo and Melbourne, australia. So it's a dynamic network of cities and, yeah, your face looks shocked.

Speaker 1: 19:47

We're so little, we're so little, but we're mighty, we're so mighty.

Speaker 2: 19:52

We are the city of Ali, and so I try to say that we punch above our weight class here right.

Speaker 2: 19:58

So, we can hang with these big cities because they saw that we were doing interesting work and I think that that is really a testament to the women and the people in this city, and so we have been partnering with them. Publica is a research and design practice in London, england, and they are really phenomenal. So they do private projects in design, but then they also have the Campaign for Inclusive Cities, which has started their work looking at how cities, looking through a gender lens, of how cities can be more joyful and safer and usable for women, and so Publica connected with Change. We went to a workshop with them last summer and then Change selected three of the partner cities Bogota, stockholm and Louisville to do an innovative design project with Publica. So Publica came the last week of October and did a series of workshops here and has been collaborating with us ever since and has just sparked so much action and planted so many seeds that are now, in this beautiful springtime, bearing fruit. So it's a really exciting collaboration. It's very fruitful, yes, very fruitful.

Speaker 1: 21:03

I like that.

Speaker 2: 21:04

Yeah, we're flourishing.

Speaker 1: 21:06

Flourishing together. And what was interesting is that you invited me to one of the lunches to really discuss what it's like, because a lot of their information was based around data, which is really cool, obviously, and, like I said, I'm out here about the vibes, so I'm just out here on lived experience, and I thought that that was a really interesting lunch because at the table was the local government and was Publica, was Change, was you obviously local government, and then racing was at the table and myself and I was just like wow, this was a fancy table to be at. And I think having people in your life that bring you to those tables and speak your name in those rooms even when you're not there, but also literally invite you to sit at the table, was such a cool moment. And I just want you to know I felt very, very fancy at that table and was able to kind of bring a cool moment. And I just want you to know like I felt very, very fancy at that table and was able to kind of bring a different perspective and a lot of times, people they're interested in like learning about the businesses and everything, but they not every business is super mission driven, you know, or mission driven at all. There's a lot of businesses that aren't, but it's interesting that I was able to come to that and bring a different perspective. They were very intentionally listening to what I was talking about and when they were mentioning things about the lighting in the city or how the trees need to be cut higher or the public art making things safer you know I had listened to a podcast that was like oh gosh I'm trying to remember which city it was in, but there was a city with a lot of snow up north and they used to clean the highways first and then the side streets and then the sidewalks.

Speaker 1: 22:50

And they realized that when they cleaned the sidewalks first and then the small streets and then the highways, there was way less accidents that were happening throughout the day, less accidents that were happening throughout the day, and a lot of that was based around the caregivers needing the access to the sidewalks or needing the access to the small streets to get to the grocery store or whatever, and it was interesting that they hadn't considered that shift. But how much more beneficial it was, not just to women but to the caregivers and to everyone in the city, because there were much less accidents causing much less stress on their resources. And I was like wow, better for everybody.

Speaker 2: 23:28

Yeah, better for everybody.

Speaker 1: 23:29

It even comes down to snow plowing, it comes down to all of those things. So I mean, thank you for inviting me to that table, and I'm always there to make everybody feel the vibes. Hopefully we got some of those with them. But what's like one of your kind of biggest takeaways maybe from one of those sessions? I know there's like a million. No, no, it's okay.

Speaker 2: 23:52

Well, one is and I'll connect this back to our earlier conversation. Having a gender lens about planning, about how cities work, is a strategy. It's actually very strategic and it works. So not only is what I think it's the right thing to do, because it's been what I would say would be a blind spot we have not sort of considered the lived experience of how women move about cities. I mean, the history of cities is fascinating. So I do like the book Feminist City because it lays out a lot of the history and for a long time in the United States, women weren't allowed to go downtown.

Speaker 2: 24:25

I mean, there was a whole movement where women couldn't go downtown. It wasn't seen as ladylike and so when stores started to open and women had that, they would go with each other and go shopping and there were men, groups of men. Professor Joanne Sweeney from the Brandeis School of Law gave a great presentation recently and she was sharing how women would be chased by these men who would taunt them, and it was all about that. They were taking up space and being in spaces that they shouldn't have been Interesting and it was really connected to the city. So fast forward to 2025, but a lot of our cities are still built for male commuters to get in and out quickly. As you mentioned, women might be taking more circuitous routes going to get groceries, dropping off kids, and so everything is sort of designed for men. It's not that they, I think, wanted to exclude us, it's just it's been built from one perspective rather than multiple perspectives.

Speaker 1: 25:16

It's been built up in a different time In a different time. Yeah, so we have to change those things.

Speaker 2: 25:23

You have to shift it and see where you can make some changes and open things up so that really it can flow. What we're trying to do is remove, like artificial barriers so people can just move and thrive and do their thing. So I think for me what was so great is about 260 people were touched by that visit when they came there were four workshops.

Speaker 2: 25:42

One was with built environment professionals architects, engineers, planners, transportation folks, community folks. There was a workshop with teen girls about revisioning parks and there were two what are called street tagging walks, so women and a few men also joined them to walk through neighborhoods. We were in Smoketown and Russell and looking at design elements that we wanted more of or less of, but I would say that the teen workshop was really probably one of the most powerful things I've ever been a part of in my life.

Speaker 1: 26:12

Yeah, I saw that there was an activity where teen girls were creating mood boards for joyful, inclusive public spaces and that, of course, immediately caught my attention inclusive public spaces and that, of course, immediately like caught my attention. I'd love to hear more about that and like what did it look like from a young person's perspective? Because it's so interesting when you are a younger person and you're not so jaded and you're not quite sure of the limitations. I wonder what their minds conjured up.

Speaker 2: 26:41

Yeah, it's such a good question. So first my dear friend and colleague, dr Ellie Cosgrave, who just had a baby.

Speaker 1: 26:46

so congrats on her for becoming a mama.

Speaker 2: 26:49

But she led this workshop so beautifully with her team and the first question was where do teens go outside of their home to be with friends?

Speaker 1: 26:58

And how they feel in those spaces.

Speaker 2: 27:00

And there weren't a lot of spaces made for them, for teen girls, and they articulated that a lot of them went by one and they were from all over the county Rural, I mean, suburban, urban, all different schools, private schools, public schools and they all talked about feeling a fear of gun violence in all those spaces and also sometimes being catcalled or followed or looked at because they were girls. They couldn't just be so. It's really heavy. I mean, the adults in the room surrounding them, in this circle were just. We kind of felt hopeless for a minute, like what are we even doing here, talking about spaces? And then Ellie flipped it so beautifully, so artfully, and said, okay, you've articulated so clearly the challenges. And Ellie likes to say, just to paraphrase her, that you are usually able to just go straight to the truth of what it is much more quickly than we are. You and I might think about it and analyze it and say, well, gun violence may not be as prevalent in those areas, but they just are articulating what they're feeling. So then she asked them well, if you could design a space, a park, what would it look like? What would it feel like? Who's there? What are you doing? How do you get there? Are you there day or night, what is it called?

Speaker 2: 28:07

And they did collage mood boards of their parks, wow. And then they presented them and it was incredibly beautiful, powerful. And then the impact, because we talked about strategy and impact and community. It's all these themes coming up Strategy and Impact and Community. It's all these themes coming up. The impact was some of those girls are going to be engaged with further redesign of parks. No way Including GG Moore Park in the South End, near Churchill Downs, which is named for Georgia G Moore, who was a black suffragette and poet. Yeah, her story is little known, so we're planning on just not making those just be workshops and discussions, but actually planted and rooted and taking shape. So it was transformational.

Speaker 1: 28:50

It was really powerful to see that and to have them in a space where they are actually feeling heard. And you know, like that's not something that I do consider all the time, but I, you know, was in school before Columbine and stuff like that, and it's so prevalent right now in their world of school shootings and gun violence. I wouldn't, I'm not surprised that they have this for every area that they're in, but I am, I'm saddened by it for sure, and I want to find, you know, the ways that that communication that they, like you said, are articulating, like how can we lower that? And a lot of that is through, as you said, you know, just connect, like that's all there is, and when there is more connection, there is less violence, traditionally so, or maybe that's.

Speaker 2: 29:37

Yeah, no, it is. And there's research. I mean good parks. You got the data, I got the is and there's research.

Speaker 3: 29:41

I mean good parks. You got the data, I got the facts. There's amenities and there are people that are going there and there are more eyes on the street and they're used.

Speaker 2: 29:46

Yeah, it decreases gun violence. So this actually is again a great strategy. So how do you engage a group of teen girls to then prevent gun violence? I mean it feeds right into the mayor's goal of a stronger, safer, healthier city. Number one priority is public safety, so all this work we're doing ultimately feeds into that goal. It's just using kind of really innovative and novel approaches that we haven't tried before.

Speaker 1: 30:09

Yeah, I love to hear that and like it. Just, my heart is like so full for them. And there is this conversation around third spaces. A lot it's like a place that you that isn't your home, isn't your work and isn't somewhere you're expected to spend money. So a lot of times I do get a lot of people in here and of course I'm a store. I get it. We live in a capitalist society.

Speaker 1: 30:34

I am hopeful that they'll buy something because it goes towards the mission of the community and, like you're saying, a healthier, a safer city. But at the same time, I don't expect it. I don't expect it from them. I don't rush anybody out, I'm just here and typically what happens is I'm sitting at this chair and I'm just a friendly person. I could talk to a brick wall. Usually I could talk to my Barbie dream house if nobody was in here and honestly, most of the time it's just like a karaoke concert in here if, like, no one's here.

Speaker 1: 31:02

But when someone walks in, I am a curious person. I want to know where they're from, what they're doing and it is genuine. I'm like welcome to my place. You know, like you're basically in this place, that I created this container and I want to know how deep you want to get, and it is difficult. But it is an interesting perspective of when something in—I've heard every angle of feminism is good, feminism is bad and feminism is misunderstood which is usually the truth and they think of it as more of misandry, where they're thinking that what feminism is is just misogyny for men, and so men don't often feel welcome, and I help them understand that feminism is for everyone. It's just the political, social and economic equality and mostly equity that we're looking for. So it's something where, again to your point, I just want to exist.

Speaker 1: 31:59

And women when they walk into the space, because it is hyper-feminine in this space you know as stereotypically hyper-feminine on purpose, it is a strategy, so that it's so outrageous that when you're here, whatever version of you that or whatever version of feminism or sorry, of femininity that you subscribe to in whatever way, it's welcome here. But this is a hyper-feminine space because there's not a lot of them that are in existence. And to feel that safety, I literally will watch women's shoulders drop, I will watch their the breath, you know, just like they know they're safe here, and like I'll play with their kids as they're shopping around, or I'll make sure that, like every part of their. You know, if the— the male in the group walks in and he's unsure, I'll talk to him and make sure that he feels comfortable. So this is one of those spaces that, while you know, I mean we would love for you to shop, and I love to shop because that's why I own a gift shop, because, listen, if I didn't I would just own all this stuff and be a hoarder like my grandma. But you know, I love it and I love when it leaves and I love when it goes to a good home and when it goes to a place that is going to make that impact or going to make somebody feel seen or heard or understood. But also the people that work here are always ready to help feel, you know, seen and heard and understood.

Speaker 1: 33:27

So it's just kind of interesting that a third space that's even a storefront can often be that and I mean this is 400 square feet. So that's part of the reason that I made the wild tours, because, as a marketing strategy, this is 400 square feet. How do I make my business as big as possible to get attention while keeping with my impact and keeping with my mission and, oh, it's to celebrate all of us within four or five blocks. So now it is not just 400 square feet and a lot of people, to your point have I hear it five, six times a day that people saw me on TikTok and then came in, never considered visiting Louisville, didn't know what it was about and honestly, I haven't even posted that much, it's not even you know.

Speaker 1: 34:15

But it's like they're searching around and because we have 17 cities that can drive here, so many people can make this trip and they're just looking for something that might not be the bourbon, you know, might not be the fast horses, and I'm trying to make sure that the people that are here feel safe in that way, and so it's just kind of interesting. And I think one of the things that Publica did that you mentioned a little bit earlier is that street tagging exercise and I mean, from my understanding, it offers such a visual way to kind of map how women perceive the space and where they feel safe or not, and that kind of storytelling through action I think is really powerful. So, like, what are those exercises that teach you about the everyday experiences of women, especially marginalized women, in Louisville spaces Like, as you're going around? What does that tagging exercise really look like for someone?

Speaker 2: 35:08

So I'm so excited you've brought this up because there are upcoming events happening that I haven't even shared with you. Yay, but you know the Publica team. We did go to the National Women's Soccer League game. That was here.

Speaker 2: 35:21

So we and we visited your shop and the walk through Bridgertown was at night, so it was sort of an official street tagging where we were just paying attention to design elements and envisioning wow, what if there were creative lighting? What if there was wayfinding a pathway? What if there were? I think we even talked about this. What if there were lavender butterflies, you know Ali images or bees or pink dots leading from your store in Newloo all the way to Butchertown.

Speaker 2: 35:48

Like these pathways for people that are not just about, like traditional safety measures that we think about of sort of more surveillance and lighting, which is fine, but you'd be surprised that, like, things that seem joyful and fun attract more people and with more eyes on the street, it's safer. So, street tagging, you just have a red and a green circle and you literally take pictures of red being elements that you don't really like or make you feel unsafe or not as comfortable or welcome, and green for positive. So, and then you collect that and that becomes the evidence base. So that is based in women's lived experience of how they feel in that space. But there's a lot of other strategies that are really creative Coming up. This summer we'll be partnering with a council district to do two artists-led women's night walks Ooh yay For women and teen girls, and that will explore being at nighttime, which is really interesting, because places that women might feel safe during the day, like walking in Nulu, might feel a different way for people than walking at 10 o'clock at night on a Tuesday Right.

Speaker 1: 36:51

Yeah lighting alone.

Speaker 2: 36:53

So, it explores that and really the idea is, I would say it's twofold. It's about safety, but it's also about, like we want people to go to small businesses and restaurants in Louisville, we want our economy to thrive, we want people to feel like they can walk around all the time and they can already in some spaces but how can we make that even more enjoyable and joyful and safe for women and for everybody? Women are almost like the barometer, right, that's what I was thinking, because if you're walking, alone as a woman or you have kiddos.

Speaker 2: 37:20

It's going to be a barometer. And one last thing I do want to say about men, because I loved how you talked about like if a guy walks in and maybe feels a certain way, you invite him in. I have for a long time as my career as a lawyer, I was advocating for and oftentimes against things and it felt a lot like a fight. And I'm much more. I'm turning 50 this year. I feel like it's a big shifting point and I'm much more about the invitation in. Yeah, definitely holding accountable and, you know, advocating against certain things, but that invitation in. So I'm really excited also that the Office for Women is starting an Office for Women Allies training for men this summer. I love that and that is looking at things like men as caregivers, men's mental health, men in violence prevention, because they need a space that feels safe for them too, to explore that.

Speaker 2: 38:06

So just wanted to put a plug in for those programs. Oh, absolutely.

Speaker 1: 38:09

And I'll say like something that really helped me was a quote that Amber Duke gave me. She's the executive director of Kentucky ACLU here. She's another friend. We're both ADs, you know, with our initials. So we're like get it, girly. But we texted them quite a bit and we met up for coffee and you know I was talking to her about how do you manage something like that?

Speaker 1: 38:35

Because I mean, I do receive a lot of communication that you know I could come back and be very combative in my choices to always respond versus react. And she told me the simple, you know, calling people in versus calling people out. And if you feel called out, how can you call yourself in? You know how can you challenge that within yourself. But if someone feels uncomfortable in an area that's never my intention and if that's not my intention then I need to work on speaking to them and allowing that comfortability to come in.

Speaker 1: 39:05

And so a lot of times there, yes, the idea of feminism has been the idea of angry feminism and there's a lot that I could definitely see with the amount of interaction I have with the word feminism and with the amount of frustrating situations when we're not heard or seen or listened to in a situation, I can absolutely understand why someone would choose to react, basically versus respond, and to allow that frustration to take over. And I'm not saying I never have or that I never will, but I do think it's really important to and I, of course, really look up to Amber as well and it's just like to know that she can manage the Kentucky American Civil Liberties Union I'm trying to remember if my acronym is correct but the ACLU, like if she can manage that, I can manage this. And every time I like need those vibes, I'm like what up, girly, can you help me call myself in, you know, to those moments. So yeah, I definitely agree that always calling in versus calling out, because that's the inclusive nature versus the exclusive. So I really do appreciate that and I know that you and I both, obviously, you can tell want women to thrive.

Speaker 1: 40:25

And we do use that and I like how you said that as a barometer, as a measuring tool of if a woman feels safe, you know, because there are things that we have to deal with every single day. If the kiddos feel safe, that's the important part, and so that way communities really thrive. But the truth is is that we're still not fully embraced as women, as the caregivers, as the non-binary folks in most economic policy conversations. And you mentioned your background as a lawyer and girly. I wish I could have gone there and I'm so glad that you know allyship looks different for everyone, and this is mine, but I think it's so amazing that you have that background in really intentionally standing up and standing out and taking up that space. But why do you believe that investing in women is one of the most effective economic development strategies that we have? I mean, we've kind of touched on that, but how can we help people understand that?

Speaker 2: 41:30

Yeah. So I think part of it is it's investing in women and it's also passing policies that have a gender lens that end up actually helping men and women. So paid parental leave is one of those easy paid family leave. So whether you're caring for an elderly relative or a child, whether you are the person who gave birth or you're the other parent or caregiver, that is shown to just transform things. First of all, it's a short-term investment for a long-term retention strategy.

Speaker 2: 41:58

Second, women carry the lion's share of unpaid labor and it costs our economy. Like women, that's part of the motherhood penalty or the caregiver's penalty, that we lose out on wages because of lack of supportive policies. And so one, you'd have women start to still advance in their career if there were more policies that were family-friendly. Two, when men take off paid parental leave, they end up long-term sharing more of the burden of even like housework and childcare. So it sort of evened things out. So I would say, almost like gender policies, family-friendly policies that help people. But investing in women also looks like the policy that we passed, which is for paid leave for domestic violence victims, most of whom are women, or victims of any other crimes, because that's seven days paid leave if you're a city worker in Louisville and Lexington. Took our model and replicated it which is awesome.

Speaker 2: 42:52

We'd love every city in the state to do that. It would be great for their city workers and certainly private businesses can do it too here. But that's an initial investment of paid time off so that you can change your locks, get a protective order, talk to a lawyer, go to a shelter, but you get to keep your job. And when we invest in women, we prevent crime, Because if you have a job and you don't have to rely on an abuser who's paying the rent, that reduces violence. So not only is investment in women a good in and of itself, economically it actually contributes to a safer world, and so I just really think it's again a good strategy. It's even more of a good strategy right now, if people are concerned about economic growth. You might look at some of those extra programs child care, some of those other supports as extra, and they are actually central to building a sustainable economy. So all the research really shows that that you invest in women and you reap many, many rewards from it.

Speaker 1: 43:55

Yeah, I'm sorry you made me really emotional to think about the seven days and of course that's more than ever before and everything. But just to understand that it's just—I wish it was more and I'm happy that it is seven days and I can't believe it wasn't something before. I had a little like out of body moment when you're explaining that and it's something you know. I've been with my partner for such a long time and he's such a beautiful, beautiful human and that is truly not a part of my life and obviously I can recognize how traumatic it would be and I've had women work for me that needed that time off and still paid them for that time. And so, to your point, that's something that I mean. I'm not trying to like say that I did this good thing, but it's like I'm just happy that I put the human first.

Speaker 2: 44:47

Yes, and actually you were very practical. You probably also wanted to keep a good employee.

Speaker 1: 44:52

Exactly, you wanted to keep them safe Like it is good business. I mean it were very practical. You probably also wanted to keep a good employee. Exactly, you wanted to keep them safe Like it is good business, I mean it's good business.

Speaker 2: 44:56

But I think what you point out is so important for two reasons. One is that you're right Sometimes we ask for too little as women, for us people. Maybe we should have asked for a month off. I mean, I don't listen to the Office of Management and Budget, that was a joke. But I'm not doing any legislative advocacy on this, truly Disclaimer disclaimer. Yeah, but I do think that that idea of asking for what we actually need, I mean it's so powerful in us, right? I often say to people I've coached other women on how to negotiate salaries. I've never negotiated a salary, so what's that about? Why is it that we don't dream big and ask broadly and boldly? I think there's just a lot of work to do about that and how women take up space and what we ask for and what we advocate for. Even if you are a lawyer and you're almost 50, you still may fall short in a way. And that's why I think when you create cultures of community and you see other women have done it, it makes it a lot easier.

Speaker 1: 45:59

Yeah, and I think even mentioning that here, hey, this is part of that advocacy and talking about that, and I do know so many women business owners listen to this podcast and it's all over the world that people are listening. So I know, isn't that?

Speaker 2: 46:12

cool. Well, I'm sure Change and Publica Cities will listen to this Yay.

Speaker 1: 46:17

And I mean it's interesting to even bring it up because it was like a few days that I offered and I'm like, okay, well, that's my new policy minimum of something like that. But it's really interesting. And I do agree that it's good business to retain an employee. It's much harder to. I mean they say that about customers too. It's better to retain a customer than to earn a new one because the cost is lower. So even from that status or that point of view, I mean it's hard for me to imagine why people wouldn't choose it it.

Speaker 1: 46:56

And I agree with you that it seems kind of like extra sometimes, but it really is fundamental in those changes that we can make. But if you look at it from that capitalist perspective and that business first perspective, it's better to give that time. It's a better decision financially. So I'm just sometimes still surprised and typically when I'm speaking with anyone about economic development and with women and everything, it's always I do bring it because I grew up with such positive, you know, masculine relationships in my world, I do kind of feel like I understand how to talk to the dudes. Like farts are funny, I get it, you know. Like let's go, but like I feel like there's. There is that understanding of usually they'll look at it from a numbers perspective. So, being able to I don't want to say weaponize, because that's not the right word I mean but truly have the ammo to produce the conversation that can change, so to have the data ammo of just like, oh, just data.

Speaker 2: 47:49

Yeah, we'll not use gun language. I know right, it's the worst.

Speaker 1: 47:53

But it feels like with some of those conversations because we were talking about, they can get kind of combative quickly. That's why I use that loaded language. But I do think it's interesting that the de-escalation can often be the data, and that's kind of what I was trying to get at.

Speaker 2: 48:08

It totally is, and I just the invitation in. I mean, we were doing a workshop on. It was a series on women and economic empowerment and it was a series on policies that support gender equity and we had all different people representing different sectors of government and business talking about it. And people got up there and talked about the push for paid parental leave in metro government. And I'll never forget a man stood up.

Speaker 2: 48:31

He worked in corrections, which is a very male-dominated environment, and he had come to this panel discussion in person held by the Office for Women, you know, at Metri Nye Way, and he stood up and he was tearing up pretty much and said look, with my first child I didn't have paid parental leave.

Speaker 2: 48:50

I couldn't take time off. With my second child I was, and I have this different relationship with my second child. And you could have heard a pin drop in that room because we realized we have to get to people's hearts and their minds at the same time to really understand that this is actually about everybody thriving, it is about women and it's also about just the whole community benefiting. I know we've said that a lot, but I was so struck by him, his vulnerability in sharing that, which is a really complex thing to share in a room full of strangers, and it was just that affirmation that this is absolutely work that benefits everybody and we just need to do a really good job storytelling around it. So maybe you need, you know, maybe a few men hop on this podcast and tell their stories of how they're transformed by the work you're doing and why they also see money in women's wallets.

Speaker 2: 49:48

But I mean, I really do think that there's a way to center and focus women while also letting men and others know how this work impacts them Absolutely. Like I think women should still be at the center. There should still be spaces like your shop, that are proudly, unapologetically pink and feminine. And then, you know, people can find themselves in here too.

Speaker 1: 50:10

I do think one of the best things that in my relationship with my husband, my partner in life, is that we both are open and excited about each other's exploration of masculinity, of femininity, of everything in between. We're open to that. He doesn't go when I put on Taylor Swift in the car, or I don't go like ugh when he puts on, you know, something that's more traditionally masculine, like a rock song or something like Led Zeppelin he was listening to when he was reading this book about cities, because he really likes urban development as well, which is interesting. But he's just like at home with a little like. I came home last night after podcasting and he was at home listening to Led Zeppelin, reading his book and drinking some whiskey. And I'm just like, get it, boy. Like sometimes I'm like I'm literally just a girl, like I don't know, like not I don't know, but like when I just am being silly myself in that way and I'm just like you're literally just a boy and we're so attracted to that in each other that we're willing to explore that and we're willing to explore our full selves and also being open to the person next to us doing that in our family. That does limit us to actually creating those systems that are very, very beneficial to the entire community. And I really like how, during this podcast, we've described not only sisterhood as strategy but, like women, as this tool of measurement of, like our experiences as this tool of measurement, you know, utilizing us as the barometer of like are we hot, are we cold, are we safe, are we not? You know, in these situations and in any situation where we can make someone feel more safe or de-escalate the situation in any way, like calling them in versus calling them out creates a more healthy.

Speaker 1: 52:10

And what was the mayor's goal? A healthy city, safer, healthier, stronger Louisville, safer, healthier, stronger Louisville. And by modeling that I'm sure that's why, you know, change and Publica were interested in our cities and by having these moments where we can really bring that information, like I actually need more of this data of your walk for Nulu, because they are doing a streetscape project right outside our front door, which you may have heard on this podcast as we've been going along, but we are in our construction era. It's fine, but they are, you know, working to add in bike lanes, they're working to add in more. Actually, I'm working on some of the lighting projects, some of the banners, some of the art we're voted like number eight arts district in the entire country.

Speaker 1: 52:57

So how do we continue to let those things and the data that you've collected with Publica and everyone you know to better influence our stamp on Louisville and our area and how do we show that that can really be that safe environment, especially at night when you just don't know what's around the corner? You know, I mean a lot of our side streets don't have sufficient lighting and even last night I was walking to my car in the dark and I was on Market Street and it felt more lit up than I had ever noticed before and they just put the trees in, which has been like it's so nice to have trees again on like in our sidewalks and it's been such a long time of just like. I mean, my building's been like shaking for like a year. We had to like re-caulk all the windows to make sure that it doesn't rain inside now but it's just like those little that are so little but so big and I really appreciate the conversation we've had kind of surrounding that and I don't know.

Speaker 1: 53:58

I just I'm just obsessed with you and I just I think because I'm so interested in the exploration of, like the world. I'm a curious person. I love people and I'm always curious how they came to be you know that within themselves and how they came to be not become themselves, but just really live in themselves. You know like live fully. And when I see you, I see a great heart and I see just someone that has that human-centered goal and I really appreciate that about you.

Speaker 2: 54:33

Well, thank you, you're welcome. I return that right back to you.

Speaker 1: 54:37

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Speaker 3: 55:51

Hi, this is Genevieve Jacobs and I was curious what event you're doing next. That will be a tour in Nulu. Today is a wonderful day for women-owned businesses around the world.

Speaker 1: 56:03

I want to kind of wrap up here, but I'm wondering if there's anything that we've missed that we just like need to chat about, because, like, I'm ready to chat about what you're going to wear to your 50th birthday, yeah, so yeah, well, I don't know.

Speaker 2: 56:17

There's so much yeah, and we could have just scratched the surface, but I think I would like to say that I would invite everybody in to come visit your shop and do the tour of women-owned businesses. And what I really love about the way that you approach everything that you do is you do it with absolute joy. And so, if I can close with sharing one thing that again my dear friend Dr Ellie Cosgrave shared we were talking about the challenges that anybody faces. When you are swimming upstream, so to speak, when you are doing change, when you're changing the way things are, when you're changing streets, when you're changing policies, when you're changing culture, it can feel sometimes that you're knocking on a lot of closed doors. And I said what do you do? And she said stop knocking on the closed doors, go into the doors that open.

Speaker 2: 57:10

And this is the part that has just been guiding me and centering me at this time in history. She said make the party so irresistible that everyone wants to attend. Listen, it's beautiful, isn't it? And it makes sense. But you do that, amanda, you do that, you do it beautifully when you do events. You make the party so irresistible in your shop, and so I just want to reflect that back to you, that you're doing that with joy. Yeah, and that is so needed too.

Speaker 2: 57:33

It's not all facts and figures and strategy and impact. It's actually a lot of joy, so thank you for being who you are you need the data and the vibes?

Speaker 1: 57:42

Yes, data and the vibes.

Speaker 2: 57:44

That's how complimentary it is. Maybe that's the podcast we start.

Speaker 1: 57:46

There you go, you bring the data, I bring the vibes. I mean we could switch every once in a while. Sometimes I know data, sometimes I don't know. I think it's just really beautiful. Thank you so much for sharing that. I feel like I've been through multiple emotions and I've learned during this podcast and I'm very grateful for that opportunity always and, like I said, that exploration of self, of city, of community together, and I'm excited to see what Louisville does next and I know it's some cool things because we're working on it, we're getting there, we are. Yeah, I always love to close out with like, how can people put money into your wallet, so to speak? So obviously you work for Louisville Metro Office for Women. Maybe you can tell them how to apply for the office or, sorry, for the ambassador program, or you can give them how to apply for the office or, sorry, for the ambassador program, or you can give them just a little bit of details on where to find the events for the summer.

Speaker 2: 58:45

Sure, so the easiest way is, if you're on Instagram, follow OFW L-O-U-M-E-T-R-O Office for Women LUMETRO. We're also on Facebook under Office for Women, but more people are on Instagram. We're not on TikTok, we're not fancy like that, but that's where you can find the office and really find out how to apply for Office for Women. Allies, the men's program. Find out events. We'll do Women's Equality Day again this year, focusing on women's right to vote, August 23rd. So there's a number of events coming up the walks this summer, so do that and then repost it. And this is a call out to the men. Are there any men who listen?

Speaker 1: 59:23

Maybe a few men.

Speaker 3: 59:25

There are Good, good, good.

Speaker 2: 59:26

But if you all repost this and share it, it sends a message also to women in your circle. So do that and share, Follow and share. I think that does help broaden not just the work we're doing but the importance of these approaches in the city.

Speaker 1: 59:43

I agree, Every ally that we can bring into the fold that has the understanding, hopefully it shares it, hopefully talks about it in their circles, Hopefully there's a million interactions that are then positively impacted. Beyond that that we'll never see, but we'll know are there and every community can thrive from that. Well, I mean just thank you so much again, Gretchen, and I mean y'all.

Speaker 1: 1:00:07

This was a good one it was fun Always. Oh, I'm so excited, and if you need to borrow that disco jumpsuit for your 50th birthday, you just let me know. I did have it altered to myself, so we might need to add some length because I'm a little shorty, but we will figure it out. I got some sparkly boots that could go with it too. But thank you so much for listening and, moneymakers, until next time, go out there and make that money. If you want to put more money into the wallets of women, like we do, then check out our website, thewomanownedwalletcom, and we can't wait to continue the conversation on our social media. So definitely follow us on our Instagram, at womanownedwallet, and on TikTok at womanownedwallet. You can support us by following our podcast on Apple, google and Spotify, and don't forget to leave us a review. Thank you for listening to Woman-Owned Wallet, the podcast.